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Post by Kieran on Nov 7, 2011 11:57:36 GMT 2
In over hundred years there have come to be so many different versions of this unique boy. What are your thoughts on him and which are your favourite versions?
My absolutely favourite versions are the original from the canon novels and the 2003 live-action film portrayed by Jeremy Sumpter.
The novel's Peter is likely my number one favourite because he has so much more complexity and interesting psychological issues than the film's version. And the novel's Peter really intrigues me endlessly. It's like there's always something new to discover as you read over again and keep thinking. So, in character study I mostly use the novel Peter, while sometimes regard also that film version as it's quite faithfully adapted from the original and I'm interested in whatever the film makers may have thought of with this-and-that choice they made...
In my fanfiction I totally mix the two but weighting on the 2003 movie version...and in an alternate universe...because I wish to explore his full potential in wider terms, as in I need him to grow up and be able to lead at least relatively normal life at some point but just with all the past traumas, emotional issues and lost memories of his past and stuff in this world, and so on...
Of course, writing purely the novel Peter as an adult in the time era the novel takes place, would also be awfully interesting. The problem is I can't see him ever daring to try growing up and living and I can't bring myself to write AU if it doesn't have a logic base. Hence, one reason why I mix the 2003 film Peter in. Well, to be more specific I can't see the novel's Peter daring to grow up soon enough to get a chance to still be with Wendy. And his and Wendy's relationship is ultimately the one I love to explore.
Even if the novel's Peter did choose to grow up, he could never hope to lead even relatively normal life as he's too far gone by the point he met Wendy. That I feel would limit some areas I like to explore and would also get quite challenging to write, even as much as I love and understand psychology.
So, my Peter Pan ran away at the age of 11, has a two-way romantic love with Wendy, has the mother-issue exactly the same as the novel's Peter and it utterly affects his relationship with Wendy, he spent 30 years in Neverland before Wendy, was a violent leader to the Lost Boys, is careless about killing, loves Wendy above everyone else, and did choose to grow up after all, a few months after Wendy and the boys returned home but did not join the Darling family nor let anyone adopt him or anything such...so he ends up with Wendy eventually.
What I had to torally drop out was at least the lost line between reality and make-belief and constant extreme forgetfulness, and also had to shorten his Neverland time...like a lot. (Hence from some 100+ years to 30 years.) I kinda wish I could write him starting off as the 6-8 years old that Barrie intented him to be, because it would have him so much more tragic...but...For the two-way romance development the 2003 film's vision works a bit better. That film intented him to be 12 but I want him to be 11. A compromise, at least.
I started a fanfic series in 2006 but have deleted most of it since and am rewriting the beginning part, as my character study improved. So I've started to write the series all over again, in a more in-character and in-depth vision. None of the rewrite is yet published though. Is there anyone else who likes to write fanfiction on Peter Pan?
I do hate the Disney cartoon version. The entire thing but not the least the character version; somewhat I can understand why Disney wanted to ignore most of his issues but did they have to erase everything except the cocky nature and refusal to grow up? They turned him really shallow. But who the heck came up with the idea that Peter Pan would be a pointy-eared elf in a Robin Hood rip-off costume with the voice of a 15-years old teenager? That's like the utter opposite of a unique human child of age 8 or so that he is.
The Spielberg version from Hook...well, as known I do support Peter growing up and trying the adventure of life but I do not believe he would've done it with anyone but Wendy. And certainly not with some random fan-made grandaughter named Moira! So I'd wished they'd at least explained why her and not Wendy? The basic idea of his character development was interesting but the contrast was too much. He's utterly out-of-character and that I don't like. Even to begin with, hence they crucially changed the reason of why he ran away as a baby. But still this is much better version than the cartoon elf.
I think Peter Pan's one of the best fictional characters ever created, already just the original canon version independently but especially the general concept of the character which with the numerous different adaptations down to this day, offers something for everyone and gives so many possibilities for fanfiction. Disney provides the childlike, shallow-ish base whereas the novel and the 2003 live-action movie offer bases for a complex, darker fiction. I have plans to write some also in canon view, as in not mixing with the 2003 film, and not having Peter grow up.
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Post by brokenrose24 on Nov 16, 2011 1:52:44 GMT 2
I believe it would be WENDY who would cause Peter to WANT to grow up but I have an idea why he would do so, it would be something that he would have never notice was happening. The only thing he would be focusing on is these strange feelings he's getting while with Wendy, of course Wendy would know right away what is happening because she would be the more mature one plus of course her--time of the month--would be happening now and again to remind her of these changes.
Peter I think would be ignorant, refusing to accept that he is growing up so he'll pretend not to notice until let's say one day he goes to the river and drinks some water and gasps in shock when he sees his own reflection.
idk, just a thought. I think Peter WOULD end up doing either or.
1) Growing up with wendy without realising what would be happening. 2) deciding that if he does grow up...it would be with wendy because of these odd feelings he's having and plus I think Wendy would show him...it's not so bad.
I think you should start writing when he's younger, I mean as you said...you get more of a tragic story with Peter and people will be sucked into the story more if he is a child with everything happening to him...you know?? that's how I did, I knew Peter pan was a "child" that never wanted to grow up...but you always see these adults or teenagers playing him...
in the 2003 version, he's a preteen but still has child like features...
also I understand about the whole "robin hood" elf ears thing, it was--stupid choice.
I didn't like the disney version neither, it was OK but not the greatest movie. I even saw the 2nd one with Jane and I remember everyone on youtube wrote: "HOW DARE YOU JANE, YOUR STEALING YOUR MOTHER'S MAN"
XDD
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Post by javierocker on Nov 16, 2011 4:13:44 GMT 2
Before the 2003 movie I never imagined Peter Pan growing up, but every time I do think of Peter becoming an adult its based off the movie. As for Peter's mental state, he's certainly not as bad as in the novel, but I think he has some psychological issue. I think his initial reactions to Wendy shows he can be slightly neurotic at times and given Hook's extreme viciousness I think Hook probably caused most of it. I always imagined Peter coming back and having some slight cases of PTSD, probably reacting to anything that looked remotely threatening to him.
Yeah I never understood the elf thing either, Peter Pan is not an elf. One thing the movie didn't do which they initially considered was to give Peter Pan the elf ears. I've actually seen test footage of Jeremy Sumptor with the elf ears meaning that were originally going to have him with the pointed ears. I was like thank god they eventually decided against this because then I really would've had problems taking this film seriously if he had pointed elf years.
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Post by Kieran on Nov 16, 2011 5:40:26 GMT 2
My Peter Pan chose to come back from Neverland and grow up, fully aware of it, and the reasons are: 1.) He needs a mother. Whereas never even considering to accept a grown-up as his mother, he'd found Wendy (his age mate) to be such a perfect as his mother, that he can not bear the idea of losing her or her growing too much older than him. In some sense it's like Arwen said to Aragorn; "I'd rather spend one lifetime with you than face all the ages of this world alone. I choose mortal life." Just, with more complexity in its base. 2.) There was nothing for him in Neverland anymore. After all just about everything social that had been familiar until then, had gone away or changed crucially. Except Tink. Who would of course follow him back to London and live with him. 3.) He found romantic love enjoyable feeling and wanted to give it a chance with Wendy. Ultimately admitting to himself Wendy being right about his biggest pretense. (Although personally I think his attitude about mothers' importance was slightly bigger pretense.) X Still, he stayed away from Wendy and the Boys for years, for complex psychological reasons, until one day he coouldn't live anymore with the fear of Wendy too, forgetting all about him. See I don't think he ever connected his mother's case to Neverland, not even after Wendy (in the movie) threw that idea in the air when talking to her brothers. For in the novel Peter had spent years mostly in Neverland and his mother still remembered and sorely missed him at his first return home, but then after a few more months she'd forgotten all about him. I'd think this makes Peter think Neverland has no power over mother/child memories, but that there's something wrong with him as a person and other such deeply crippling beliefs. Like the Evanescence song I once used for a fan video, says "You won't cry for my absence, I know. You forgot me long ago. Am I that unimportant? Am I so insignificant?"... Speaking of which, guys, do you think she actually forgot about Peter or if it was just his misinterpretation? After all, she could have just been sleeping heavily with Peter's new little brother and wished to welcome her other son home. Barrie even states in the novel "I'm not sure if this was true but Peter thought it was true, and it scared them."But even so...The way Barrie spoke to Peter about there being no second chance for most of us and how the iron bars are up for life and then having Michael doubt Peter's existence in less than two years while all the others were implied to have already forgotten...I got totally the feeling that what Peter believed, was really true. But then why did Mr. Barrie say he isn't sure if it was true? That up-for-life stuff he'd written years before that not-sure statement, and the Michael's perhaps-there-is-no-such-person, after it. I think he just wanted to leave it free for a reader's interpretation without anyone having to be totally wrong in theirs. But what was his own intention? I still lean towards the mother truly forgetting, because Barrie's own mother relationship kind of mirrors that way. I think Barrie was Peter Pan in more ways than anyone who's walked this earth. I think you should start writing when he's younger, I mean as you said...you get more of a tragic story with Peter and people will be sucked into the story more if he is a child with everything happening to him...you know?? Yeah, I know. But then, an 11-years old is a child in most people's minds. Some consider it already a preteen year but I think it's still much more weighted on childhood and child's mind than, say, the end of one's 12th year would be. Also, even though I have worked a lot with children between ages 0-7, it's been a while since the last time, and I'm not too sure if I could write realistically of a child that young - I mean in this case when the child is an utter mess. It's remarkably easier even so, with a child of age 11 because I remember that age from my own childhood, and come across that age kids more often. So I think I'll stick to the 11-years old and make an effort to make it emotional enough. ^^ in the 2003 version, he's a preteen but still has child like features... I actually think he has too much preeteen features for a 12-years old that he's supposed to be. And that's unavoidable because Jeremy was 13 and turned 14 during the filming. Also his voice is occationally trying to break. But in many moments he does seem to have childlike features - especially in moments when he's pained or sorrowful. So the preteen features aren't completely distracting. And anyway, I can't imagine anyone else playing the part but Jeremy Sumpter. As for Peter's mental state, he's certainly not as bad as in the novel, but I think he has some psychological issue. I think his initial reactions to Wendy shows he can be slightly neurotic at times and given Hook's extreme viciousness I think Hook probably caused most of it. I always imagined Peter coming back and having some slight cases of PTSD, probably reacting to anything that looked remotely threatening to him. Ecactly. I also think he'd, for a long time, result in violence himself when attempting to solve an argument, ot punish someone - after all that's the way he lived with his gang of Lost Boys...Or to avoid a potential physical harm for himself - after all that's the way he survived for so long in the midst of indians and pirates. I mean, this does apply to as was shown in the movie version too. OHMYGOSH, no way. The 2003 production intented the elf ears?? *shutter* Thank god, indeed, that they abandoned the idea. Seriously, the movie's borrowed more than enough from Disney as it is and making Peter an elf would've taken it way too far from the original story. I mean, come on, you can't change the entire species of a character without utterly changing the story's emotional core and effeciveness! In the Disney cartoon it doesn't stick out in that way because the elf-Peter apparently has no past and no reason for his attitudes. He just exists. He probably just sprung out of the ground one day and never had a mother to begin with...
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Post by peterpanforever13 on Dec 4, 2011 5:52:58 GMT 2
I LOVE PETER PAN with all my heart and soul i am totally obessed with him and wendy. when i go to bed i say good night to the mermaids, Idians, Pirates, Smee, Captain Hook, and than to all of Neverland. Than i say good night to London, the Darling House, Mr. and Mrs. Darling,John, Micheal, Wendy, Tinkerbell, and finally Peter Pan XD
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Post by Kieran on Dec 4, 2011 7:27:54 GMT 2
So why is he the last on the list?
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Post by peterpanforever13 on Dec 4, 2011 7:33:52 GMT 2
because i saved the best for the last i do that with everything i love!
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truepeterpan
New Member
Who is the True Peter Pan?
Posts: 12
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Post by truepeterpan on Mar 21, 2012 3:32:38 GMT 2
Yes I agree Jeremy Sumpter portrayed him very well. I also like the way he is portrayed in the Starcatchers series of books.
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blossom
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Screencaps from Disney's Peter Pan, avatar made by me
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Post by blossom on Aug 22, 2012 20:33:04 GMT 2
A lot of adaptations of the character are mentioned already. Perfect. Many things have already been mentioned. Let me start with the canon versions.
In Adventures in Kensington Gardens he is a boy of seven days old. It was then when he flew back to Kensington Gardens and thus escaped from being human. Since then he never had a birthday, his age is one week, regardless of the time that passes. Arthur Rackham drew him as a baby in the first picture. In the rest of the pictures he looks like a toddler to me. Throughout most of the story Peter is sure to return to his mother. But does not find himself ready untill that one fatal night. He is desperate to be a real boy, which to me means that he wanted to grow up. Perhaps he simply couldn't grow up, because the bars were up for life. Which might explain why the play was first called "The boy who couldn't grow up" in stead of "The boy who wouldn't grow up".
In Peter and Wendy, he looks older. I imagine him to be 12 years old. Nothing special happens after 12 and all that. But then why are the Lost Boys described as being bigger than him? I never understood that one. In most other adaptations the Lost Boys are smaller than Peter or have the same height to say the least. I think 12 fits. It's the age right before puberty hits and thus the last step before truly growing up. (Even though kids are growing up much faster nowadays) I might be wrong though. The statue in Kensington Gardens is modelled after one of the Llewelyn Davies boys who was 6 at the time. In this novel it is also mentioned that Peter still has all his baby teeth. At what age exactly to children lose their first teeth? Or does he keep them magically, because he refuses to grow up? Because in this novel he trule refuses, doesn't he? Wendy hits the sensitive topic about mothers and growing up once in a while and he reacts quite strongly on it. He does have huge issues... I think Wendy was the only person who brought him close to ever growing up. Since he let her go... why choose anyone else?
In Hook, he chooses Moira (I would've prefered her to be called Margareth). Even though the change was indeed a bit too fast, I love how this affects Wendy. He was never hers... never will be. Even as he becomes a grown man, she has to beg for his attention. It will always be about Peter. About his age: in the film Hook says one time: "To a 10-year old I look huge". In the flashback he seems to age quite normally until he meets Wendy.
I'll stop with the 2003 live action version of Peter Pan. Because he looks 12 in my mind, him looking preteen doesn't bother me that much. It also helps with all the romance between Wendy and him. I agree that this adaptation comes pretty close, but perhaps they focused a little much on the romance. He is still a boy after all. I think he cares about Wendy, but only because she adores him and cares for him no matter what. She comes closest, but again, he will never be hers in my opinion. Too bad, because they make a great couple. =)
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Post by Kieran on Aug 23, 2012 0:21:12 GMT 2
In Adventures in Kensington Gardens he is a boy of seven days old. It was then when he flew back to Kensington Gardens and thus escaped from being human. Since then he never had a birthday, his age is one week, regardless of the time that passes. Technically speaking he did have a birthday every year, he just couldn't count them and time passed by slower to him whenever he was in Neverland. So I'd rather say the only certainly known age for him is one week because after that he or anyone else wasn't keeping track of it. Of course, the way Barrie phrased it was more fairytale-ish and thus more fitting to the story. He is desperate to be a real boy, which to me means that he wanted to grow up. Yeah, sure that, too. But I personally interpret his desperate desire more of a desire to be and feel more human as it is. To learn how to play and think like normal - in his definition "real" - boys. And such things. After all, he had started off as a "bird" and living mostly amongst fairies with little human connections. (I'm not sure at which point he first had to bury dead children but I recall he was only around 5 years old or so himself then, and this certainly wouldn't have helped his image of himself in comparasion to the happy little human boys whom he never saw doing such things.) Whereas he didn't really have anything standing between himself and growing up in itself, at the time when he was indicated to "desperately want to be a real boy". Hence, the keyword 'desperately'. At least, if I remember correctly, that was long before he kind of lost that chance by losing his mother and his faith in adults, and himself. Perhaps he simply couldn't grow up, because the bars were up for life. Which might explain why the play was first called "The boy who couldn't grow up" in stead of "The boy who wouldn't grow up". I think it didn't apply to the entire storyline but only to and after the point when he was shut out and forgotten by his mother. After that he couldn no more grow up because he got too traumatized and more and more mental, and therefore lost himself. In Peter and Wendy, he looks older. I imagine him to be 12 years old. Nothing special happens after 12 and all that. But then why are the Lost Boys described as being bigger than him? I never understood that one. In most other adaptations the Lost Boys are smaller than Peter or have the same height to say the least. I think 12 fits. It's the age right before puberty hits and thus the last step before truly growing up. (Even though kids are growing up much faster nowadays) I might be wrong though. The statue in Kensington Gardens is modelled after one of the Llewelyn Davies boys who was 6 at the time. In this novel it is also mentioned that Peter still has all his baby teeth. At what age exactly to children lose their first teeth? Or does he keep them magically, because he refuses to grow up? Judging by it being Barrie's own idea to model the statue after a 6-years old boy, and he wrote him to be the same age as Wendy the oldest child of the Darlings, and he wrote the adult Wendy to try and lift Peter in her arms which of course means Peter was small in size...I always have and always will, see the canon Peter meant as around 7 years old, 8 at the most. Of course he could also be a small 12 years old but I just don't see any need for that - because in any case he is mentally around 5 years old, and physically an 8 years old could quite well fight pirates seeing to that he was able of flying and the pirates were not, and he was very clever too. As for him having all his baby teeth...Normally children have lost all their baby teeth long before their sixth birthday as in before their seventh year. Of course, because we're all indivisuals, it's possible that some have some of their baby teeth even when they start school...but all of them...I don't think so. I also don't think it has anything to do with what he wants and does not want. I'd say it could be some side effect of Neverland's magic related to aging and Peter coming and going so much between Neverland and Kengsinton Gardens during the years in "Peter Pan in Kengsinton Gardens", the years during which children who lead normal lives, do lose their baby teeth. Because in this novel he trule refuses, doesn't he? Wendy hits the sensitive topic about mothers and growing up once in a while and he reacts quite strongly on it. He does have huge issues... I think Wendy was the only person who brought him close to ever growing up. Since he let her go... why choose anyone else? Yes, he truly does. And yes, I can not see him choosing to grow up unless it was with Wendy. As he chose to let her go and not follow...I can't see anyone reaching him the way she did. I'm convinced Peter and Wendy had some extraordinary and special bond between them because out of all the people he'd known in his life, (in addition to his mother) Wendy was the only one he remembered even after decades - and Wendy was the only one to remember him even after decades. And not just to remember, they cared, too. I'll stop with the 2003 live action version of Peter Pan. Because he looks 12 in my mind, him looking preteen doesn't bother me that much. It also helps with all the romance between Wendy and him. He is supposed to be 12 in the film. One of the film's creators literally refered to it in some interview. And I think this version as well as any other version that makes him 12 or even older, are seeking romance or other more mature aspects to throw into the character. I think 12 is still fine, but to make him 15 like in the Disney animation and the new sci-fi channel mini-series...That's just missing the point of the character a bit too much. 15 is a young man, and not enough a boy. And in the original story he most certainly was not supposed to be a teenager, I think that much is safe to say. I agree that this adaptation comes pretty close, but perhaps they focused a little much on the romance. He is still a boy after all. I think he cares about Wendy, but only because she adores him and cares for him no matter what. She comes closest, but again, he will never be hers in my opinion. Too bad, because they make a great couple. =) I personally think he was hers. Hence what I pointed out earlier about them being the only ones to remember each other even after decades. And in the 2003 film he seemed to care about her long before she even knew he existed. It's just that because of his past traumas, mistrust towards adults and fear of growing up, he could not be hers in a marriage and lifetime together. But in their hearts he always was hers. So I view them similarly to The Phantom of the Opera (2004) wherein the Phantom and Christine didn't get to share a lifetime together because of the Phantom's deep issues and problems but the ending clearly indicates that he and Christine had belonged to each other in their hearts all along. They were each others' constant. I'd also like to apply here a quote: "You don't always get the dream house, but sometimes you get awfully close." That there may be "the One" for all of us but we don't always for one reason or another, get to share our lives with the person.
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blossom
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Screencaps from Disney's Peter Pan, avatar made by me
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Post by blossom on Aug 23, 2012 17:54:17 GMT 2
In Adventures in Kensington Gardens he is a boy of seven days old. It was then when he flew back to Kensington Gardens and thus escaped from being human. Since then he never had a birthday, his age is one week, regardless of the time that passes. Technically speaking he did have a birthday every year, he just couldn't count them and time passed by slower to him whenever he was in Neverland. So I'd rather say the only certainly known age for him is one week because after that he or anyone else wasn't keeping track of it. Of course, the way Barrie phrased it was more fairytale-ish and thus more fitting to the story. In Adventures in Kensington Gardens, Neverland is not even mentioned. Do you think that it's the island who makes time stand still? Or does Peter stay young on his own terms? I was never sure. In most adaptations, esp. the Disney one, they say that Neverland is a place where no one ever has to grow up. I like to think that he refuses to grow up all by himself, whether that is because of trauma's or any other reason and that he manages to do that because he is a Betwixt-and-Between, not a human. How he manages to stay a boy, I am not sure, fact is he does. Then I can ask the question: what is age? What does it mean to him? Is he 8 (just let us say 8 for a moment), because he looks like a boy of 8 years old? Or is he over a 100, because he exists that long? Or is he just 1 week, because that's his only known age? Age is relative. I agree that this adaptation comes pretty close, but perhaps they focused a little much on the romance. He is still a boy after all. I think he cares about Wendy, but only because she adores him and cares for him no matter what. She comes closest, but again, he will never be hers in my opinion. Too bad, because they make a great couple. =) I personally think he was hers. Hence what I pointed out earlier about them being the only ones to remember each other even after decades. And in the 2003 film he seemed to care about her long before she even knew he existed. It's just that because of his past traumas, mistrust towards adults and fear of growing up, he could not be hers in a marriage and lifetime together. But in their hearts he always was hers. That is beautifully said. I acknowledge that they had a connection. They most certainly did. His visit to Mrs. Darling where he tried to shut the window shows us that. But indeed, Peter Pan could never be her husband. That's what I meant with "he will never be hers". He is that distant star she once came close too, but could not bring home with her. I like to imagine that he occasionally calls her daughters "Wendy". You know, the Darling-girls who follow in her footsteps. Not because he means to, but because his memory plays tricks on him and because she will always be with him like that. The whole -letting go-issue and whatnot.
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Post by Kieran on Aug 24, 2012 16:39:18 GMT 2
In Adventures in Kensington Gardens, Neverland is not even mentioned. Do you think that it's the island who makes time stand still? Or does Peter stay young on his own terms? I was never sure. In most adaptations, esp. the Disney one, they say that Neverland is a place where no one ever has to grow up. I like to think that he refuses to grow up all by himself, whether that is because of trauma's or any other reason and that he manages to do that because he is a Betwixt-and-Between, not a human. How he manages to stay a boy, I am not sure, fact is he does. I always interpret the island Peter was on in that book, to be Neverland, therefore in my opinion Neverland is mentioned. Just not by name. And yes, I think it's the island that makes time stand still. That all outsiders stop aging while on it whereas its natives (like the indians and animals) do age normally. Or, perhaps the island chooses who it lets age and who not. After all, the island is passed off as a seperate entity that is capable of controlling things related to it. For one, Barrie wrote that Peter and the Darling children found the island only because the island wanted them to find it. So no, I do not believe Peter has any special powers when it comes to aging and I believe he's actually entirely human. I don't care if the fairytale has flying infants who understand what their parents are talking about, (if he even did. That could've also been a lie the fairies told him. So the only absolute fact we have is that the infant Peter flew.) I still see no reason to make Peter out as any in-between creature instead of just human. Because Barrie made it come off as if Peter wasn't the only one but that a baby flying out of a window without being thrown is completely normal in that world, and because after all he did grow normally whenever in Kengsinton Gardens, he did learn to speak human language and was clever in a human way and so on and so on. Therefore I see Peter's in-between bird and human state being all in his own head, completely psychological. Because of the fact that he ended up living with birds from infancy. I see him as one of the "wolf children", only better off because his world involves magical creatures and places and he had some contact with human children along the way, which all enabled him to still learn about his humanity and human ways. So, yeah. I believe his in-between-ness is all psychological in Peter's head. Just like the way he eventually lost the line between reality and make-believe. Then I can ask the question: what is age? What does it mean to him? Is he 8 (just let us say 8 for a moment), because he looks like a boy of 8 years old? Or is he over a 100, because he exists that long? Or is he just 1 week, because that's his only known age? Age is relative. I believe Peter doesn't think of his age but thinks of himself merely as a little boy. That age doesn't mean anything to him apart from seeing the fine line between a child and an adult. I think all that matters to him is that he appears, feels and can live like a child. I like to imagine that he occasionally calls her daughters "Wendy". You know, the Darling-girls who follow in her footsteps. Not because he means to, but because his memory plays tricks on him and because she will always be with him like that. The whole -letting go-issue and whatnot. I agree. I could see that.
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